Stupid IRCOp? or an example to follow?

[Stefano]

Hmmm for a moment i thought its funny, then i was thinking.. its sad.. or maybe there is no shame for an oper to ask for help? well anyways some of you specialy the lammmmmmme ones will like these logs


[02:27] *** Joins: Sir^POMOL (Digital@pomol.users.undernet.org)
[02:27] ***[#cservice] Warning: Sir^POMOL is an IRCop
[02:28] (Sir^POMOL): how to modif one access more high?
[02:30] (Stefano`): you must be joking =)
[02:31] (masta_akp): Sir^POMOL: are you a channel manager? anyway if u have a level of 499 u can make it a high level by simply remuse the access of the user then adduser again and change it into a higher level
[02:31] *** Joins: VaA{L}uSh (VaA_L_uSh@rola.users.undernet.org)
[02:31] (Quaky`): loool
[02:32] (KsaN0va): Sir^POMOL: Information on increasing/decreasing a user's access level is being sent to you via /notice
[02:32] *** Joins: Mihai_Neb (~Mihai@MihaiNeb.users.undernet.org)
[02:32] (Mihai_Neb): hy
[02:32] (Mihai_Neb): i have a big problem
[02:32] (KsaN0va): hello Mihai_Neb, how may we help you?
[02:32] (Quaky`): Mihai_Neb: ask please
[02:32] (Quaky`): yours:)))))))))))))))))))))))
[02:33] (Sir^POMOL): thank you
[02:33] *** Parts: Sir^POMOL (Digital@pomol.users.undernet.org)
_________________
Administrator @ Beirut IRC Network
Webmaster @ Beirut Scripts
DJ @ Beirut Radio

[Asmo]

Why is an oper lame if he doesnt know a command of a service that is not run by server administration? People need to get a grip before spouting off at opers if they dont know some vague command they maybe never used.

An oper needs to take care of his server, thats his only requirement. The knowledge of services like X is totally irrelevant to run a server.
_________________
Asmo

webmaster www.IRC-Junkie.org

[Asmo]

OK, I got some reactions that show I need to explain myself a little further. I hope my points about opers get through a little better, and the behaviour (or lack thereof) of soem of them...

Like I said, the only responsibility opers have is keeping their server in proper order. The only knowledge they need for that is a bunch of command to run the server including pinging, routing, etc type of commands. Knowing services like X is not part of that package. Occasionally, opers are only ina few channels related to running Undernet and they dont find themself in channels with X at all, so they dont even have personal experence with it.

Then you have opers who chose to help users directly (myself included). This is a free choice which is entirely voluntairy and certainly not mandatory. Even then, they can chose to help users with their powers as opers, not cservice related problems. In fact, CService is a section on undernet entirely unrelated to server administration. Ofcourse they work togheter to form the network, but opers dont run X, and CService doesnt run servers, its that simple really :)

Often users think opers are people who wshould be ready for them 24/7 whenever they find a need for an oper. I cant begin to explain how annoying that can be. When I have the time to help usres, I go to the rgeular channel I help from, and there people can explain me their problem. On other times, when I work or maybe even have a normal chat on IRC (opers do like to do that too ;)) I generally dont like to be bothered with such requests, so I am simply NOT in the helpchannel(s).

Does that mean I deny all requests for help over privmsg? Nope. But I can asure you, that 99% of the "are you there?" messages in the end turn out to be:

a) You seem to be a nice person, will you chat with me?
b) Do you want to join my channel, I already made you access 300
c) We have plans to make a very good new help channel and we need opers

In all cases, I would kindly decline, and continue whatever I was doing. After several years you dotn kindly decline these people, you simply put them on ignore. Becuase it happens all the time.

When will I reply to a request for help in a privmsg? When you seriously need help fast. If your channel gets flooded or anythign else that requires immediate attention and that I have no problem to interupt my work for.

But then make it clear right away in your privmsg, without the dreadful 'are you there' or similar message.

Right, I hope I cleared some of the BOFH image from opers again =D

If I read right away you really need help, and I am at the 'puter, I will!
_________________
Asmo

webmaster www.IRC-Junkie.org

[Mcmoo]

For a big network I see where you're coming from Asmo, but as an Oper on several smaller networks (40-80 users) - we have to know all about services and our ircd. Mind you most of the networks use services like Anope or Hybserv so it's not like it's something network specific or custom made so it is a bit easier. But I do think even as an Oper, I expect others to know both when I visit another network just because I do on mine.
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To err is human, to mcmoo is uber cool!

[Stefano]

My network is 600 users size, which i consider very small.. my opers do know almost all commands..
Asmo you are in fact right, im not arguing but in pomol's case, on undernet since ages.. and in arlington and company... well its not what i personaly at least expect from someone suposed to be helper/oper.
_________________
Administrator @ Beirut IRC Network
Webmaster @ Beirut Scripts
DJ @ Beirut Radio

[Asmo]

Fair enough stefano.

Anyone is free to have personal opinions about specific people ofcourse :)

PS, the server had a small hickup, all should be running fine again now though ...
_________________
Asmo

webmaster www.IRC-Junkie.org

[Kahr]

Gotta love the speeches of Asmo.

Next time I'm bored, I'm gonna message you with a "are you there?" and ask if you wanna be my friend.



Is that okay?
_________________
"One Ring to link them all, One Ring to ping them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness sniff them"

[Asmo]

How is that different from the messages I received from you so far? :P
_________________
Asmo

webmaster www.IRC-Junkie.org

[Kahr]

Will u b my frnd?
_________________
"One Ring to link them all, One Ring to ping them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness sniff them"

[Baffers]

Whats X?

[romiir]

Opers should know how to use irc... However, this obscure command doesn't mean that he is not familiar with most irc commands.. However, his lack of knowledge to be able to use the help system is very sad. You can go on about their responsibilities, or you can just get to the bottom line, they are supposed to be the resident experts and moderators of the network, if you need something, they are the ones you ask. I can understand not knowing ALL commands though. But not being able to use the help system is ridiculous. Maby he has a life and we don't and that's why he doesn't know the command, and why we have time to spend gossiping about it or maby he just shouldn't be an oper cause he lacks simple knowledge of services? I believe the latter myself and stay away from undernet

P.S.

1. If some will recall, SA stands for Services Operator...

2. It does disappoint me though that he can't just use the built in help system... LOL

--
My 2 cents,
Romiir

[katsklaw]

1> SA is not Services Operator .. try Services admin or Server Admin.
2> Asking for help doesn't make you incompetent. however, making fun of people that ask questions is stupid and very childish. That's something I expect from 3rd graders. Give me the address to your IRC network and I'll come ask you some simple questions that I think IRCops should know and see if you can answer them. I bet you can't.
3> Who ever said the oper didn't use the help system first, maybe the help system is worded in a way the oper didn't understand.
4> Lets be thankful the oper had enough humility to ask a question.
5> I'd hate to go to you network if you are this harsh on opers.
6> Most importantly .. NO ONE KNOWS EVERYTHING!!

[romiir]

Oh yes, I forgot about Undernets cservice stuff... I am used to anope and epona which have very easy to understand help systems... Hmm.. On second thought.. X has a help system too!!!!

This took me a whole 30 seconds, 20 of which was spent connecting to some lagged undernet server...

» Msg X: help
(01:52) -X(cservice@undernet.org)- SYNTAX: HELP [command]
» Msg X: help help
(01:52) -X(cservice@undernet.org)- /msg X help
(01:52) -X(cservice@undernet.org)- Displays help information on a given command.
(01:52) -X(cservice@undernet.org)- To find out what commands are available to you on a given channel, try /msg X showcommands
» Msg X: showcommands
(01:52) -X(cservice@undernet.org)- Level 0: access chaninfo info help* lbanlist login motd* newpass showcommands showignore verify suspendme
» Msg X: help access
(01:53) -X(cservice@undernet.org)- /msg X access <#channel> <*|pattern|username|=nickname> [-min ] [-max ] [-modif] [-none|-voice|-op]
(01:53) -X(cservice@undernet.org)- Can look up the access for a certain person or a string. The information indicates level,
(01:53) -X(cservice@undernet.org)- suspension status and level if suspended, and when the user was last seen.
(01:53) -X(cservice@undernet.org)- If there are more than 15 entries, go to http://cservice.undernet.org/live/ and login
(01:53) -X(cservice@undernet.org)- to see the entire list by clicking on the "Channel Information" link and submitting the channel name. (ShiftF4 to ignore further notices)
(01:53) -X(cservice@undernet.org)- You can also use and mix these options instead of a username or string to get specific results.


That may not be the easiest thing to understand, but being an oper on a network and not knowing how to run services is like working at a computer shop building and selling computers, but not knowing how to explain to a customer how to turn the computer on... LOL

Sidenotes in reply to katsklaw:
1. Ya SA is Services Admin, sorry, I screw up whenever its early A.M. hours and I browse these forums..

2. I bet I could answer your questions...

3. "5> I'd hate to go to you network if you are this harsh on opers."
Looks like you make mistakes too... Actually I bet you would love my network, as opers know what they are doing and problems are solved very quickly. Unless you don't like trouble free IRC...

4. "6> Most importantly .. NO ONE KNOWS EVERYTHING!!"
While this is true... Refer to my example about the guy at the computer shop.

5. "2> Asking for help doesn't make you incompetent..."
Nope, it sure doesn't... As I said "However, this obscure command doesn't mean that he is not familiar with most IRC commands.." But I also justified that "...his lack of knowledge to be able to use the help system is very sad." I don't expect him to know modinfo, but I expect him to figure out how to use access... Which is what the guys who tried to help him out told him how to use lol. I don't even go to undernet and I know basic commands...

It doesn't shock me that the guy can't use access commands... It shocks me he can't ask X how to use access commands. I don't expect people to know everything, but I expect them to be competent in basic use of services... Among other things.

--
My 2 cents,
Romiir

[katsklaw]

romiir, There is a difference between FINDING a subject in the help system and UNDERSTANDING what you are reading.

Just like you are able to READ my post but apparently fail to UNDERSTAND my post.

My point is it's stupid to make fun of people that are trying to learn, regardless of your expectations .. and it's very immature.

'nuf sed

[romiir]

Pasted directly from X documentation which is easily found at http://cservice.undernet.org/docs/xcmds.txt